A Thought On Sargeantry.

[arontius]

.....This is mainly to put thought to proverbial paper for future retention. But feed-back would be appreciated as well.

.....There is so much to think about when preparing for the Coronets. I probably should learn to stop over-sharing, to be honest. :-) But I like talking things out with people.

.....One of the programs that TBT wanted to concentrate on re-building was the Sargeantry Program. What we have in mind is definitely different than has been in place in the past. So that might make it a challenge from the start. Then there is the fact that we want to approach this with a wider viewpoint than as a Baroness' Guard. So the fact that the Baron would be as much a focus as the Baroness may be a strangeness that will not be tolerated either. We'll see. We intend to build the framework first and present it at a Baronial Town Hall Meeting and see how it goes over. Then it will either progress, go back for re-write, or be shelved all together.

.....All you can do it try something.

.....One of the things that always caused us paused whenever Their Current Excellencies discussed the concept was, what do Sargeants do once they earn the title? No one was ever enamored with the concept of Sargeantry as serving staff or Baronial Labor Pool. Being a Teacher or Leader is expected from anyone who has been playing for a number of years in the branch, so that was not something that really would set a Sargeantry apart. So we had to think of something different.

.....Something that I've been musing over for a while now falls in line with my Arthurian Romance stylistic musings. My thought was that when a Sargeant (or Yoeman or Lancer or Courtier or Gallant or...) is named their final act of the Trials would be to name their 'Quest' for the upcoming year. This Quest would be something that they would work on throughout the year. It should be something that was achievable. But still something that was a challenge to achieve. For a Sargeant this might mean that they fight thirty knights over the course of the year and gain their feed-back and insight. If they are a Gallant, maybe the Quest would be to learn and demonstrate a new and distinct style of weaponry. For a Courtier the Quest might be to research and demonstrate an entire new artistry.

.....Then after a year's time all the members of the Baronial Sargeantry would meet around a proverbial round table and discuss the Quest they performed over the past year. This includes their successes and failures. And how they grew within their discipline by undertaking this Quest. Others witnessing this Quest and listening to them speak at the round table might be inspired to greatness themselves.

.....Then, when all the stories have been spoke. The members all declare their Quest for the upcoming year and what they intend to do to achieve it.

.....This is rather simplistic in explanation and seems more self-centered rather than community building (which is what I would want to do as a member of the Sargeantry). But it is a starting point. My hope is to pull together a group of people to debate this to the nth degree and see what we could do to strain it into something purer.

.....TBT has been receptive, but there is still a lot of debate to happen and thoughts that need to get put down in black-and-white. :-)

.....Aaron / Arontius.

Comments

[pernell-camber.livejournal.com]

I like the Baron and Baroness thing instead of the usual protect the helpless woman thing, especially since both men and women are supposed to be sargeants.

I like the self determined yearly quest, and the fact that it is ongoing.

I wouldn't enjoy being trapped in a room listening to numerous people expound upon their year's quest, but that's what handwork is for, right? So you don't assault people who are holding your ears hostage while they bloviate?

[gwen-the-potter.livejournal.com]

Maybe a time limit...

Hmmm...

[arontius]

I'll admit I hadn't given much thought to that aspect. It is something that needs to be considered, especially should the group start growing. The stories could all be inspiring, but the mind starts going numb after a while. And if egos start getting involved that could increase the problem. Maybe, as Gwen says, a time limit. But we'll have to mull it over.

TBT might have a good answer as well.

A.

Re: Hmmm...

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

Another consideration to think of - you're either adding an event to our already crowded schedule or adding a function to our already crowded events.

I'm *not* saying it's a showstopper, just that it has the potential to be a Problem.

[gwen-the-potter.livejournal.com]

I like your ideas, I'll be interested in seeing how they turn out.

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

"Being a Teacher or Leader is expected from anyone who has been playing for a number of years in the branch, so that was not something that really would set a Sargeantry apart."

I know a number of people who've been playing for years I wouldn't want to be a teacher or a leader... That expectation is, to me, based on the person - not time in grade. (This is the same reason for the never ending discussion of PLQ's with relations to the Peerages - and what sets the Peers apart from the Gouttes and Jambes.)

What sets the Sergeantry apart is that, like Peers, they're expected to be visible role models (something our Sergeantry has never particularly been), as well as teachers and leaders. Like the peerages, they're marked as being something we should all seek to be. And, like the peerages, that's why they are/were often tapped to be staff. (Being a Guard is a purely ceremonial function - and an important part of that pageantry you love so well.) Being a Sergeant *is* their job after they become a Sergeant.

This is why, in the past, the 'ticket puncher' brigade believed that being a Sergeant was a necessary prelude for, and a sparkling gateway to, the Peerages.

http://wiki.antir.sca.org/index.php?title=Sergeant makes for some interesting reading.

"My thought was that when a Sargeant (or Yoeman or Lancer or Courtier or Gallant or...) is named their final act of the Trials would be to name their 'Quest' for the upcoming year."

Nit - if the Quest is the final act of their Trial, then they haven't been actually named to the Searjantry yet. That happens when they have *completed* the trials. Failure of the Quest means failure of the Trial (and if it does not, then it is meaningless) and they should no longer be in consideration for the Searjantry.

"Then, when all the stories have been spoke. The members all declare their Quest for the upcoming year and what they intend to do to achieve it."

And it'll be a damm hard (read "well nigh impossible") to stop this from devolving into rote or jokes. Doubly so if they have no fear of the consequences of failing a Quest.

Sargeantry Aspects.

[arontius]

The 'ticket punching' is one of the things I'm trying to move away from. It shouldn't be considered a gateway to peerage, even though it might be good training in that regard.

Lots of details to be worked out. I would very much like to avoid this from turning into a joke or eye rolling exercise by the populace or neighboring branches. But we knew it was not going to be an easy thing.

A.

Re: Sargeantry Aspects.

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

If it were easy, what would be the point?

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

Ohhh I am working on revamping sargeantry right now - we should talk!

Sargeantry.

[arontius]

That would be great. TBT and I would like as much input as possible. Is your current Program on line at all? I'd like to read up on it.

Will you be at Crown Council? We'll see you at Twelfth Night otherwise. :-)

Thanks! A.

Re: Sargeantry.

[ayeshadream.livejournal.com]

Say, Inga, Arontius and Laurellen- are you three on the kingdom wide sergeantry discussion list? As sitting coronets, or soon to be you'd be eligible to join and you can see what discussions we've had there.

Granted things have slowed down and has mostly become announcements, but for a while we had some really good discussion and information exhange going.

I can send you all an invite, if you'd like. I believe I have all of your addresses somewhere.

[tsuruko-sensei.livejournal.com]

The sergeantry no longer serves it's original purpose and hasn't for a while. I worked from the original template and tried to make improvements but change is slow especially when the status quo is challenged.

I NEVER thought of the sergeants as a free labor pool and took great pains to never treat them as such. However, they were the Baroness's Guard (Ralg and I agreed to keep things traditional that way) and were willing to step in and do something if I asked them to such as pinch hitting for the herald, setting up the Baronial pavilion if nobody else was around to do it, etc. They often volunteered to do these things too.

I considered them to be role models and as a result teachers by example both in DL and outside it. Some did not practice this. Others did, like going to fight practice and taught even though they lived outside DL or learning new things beyond their original discipline.

If you guys don't mind an old used baroness involved I'd like to work with you on developing your vision of the sergeantry.

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

"The sergeantry no longer serves it's original purpose and hasn't for a while."

I suspect not since around the time An Tir became a Kingdom with enough 'home grown' (though created by the West) Peers and the ability to observe our own people in situ and make our own Peers. I.E. long before pretty much everyone around here but you and Ralg were around.

The system has been rolling on the inertia of custom for a long time.

[ayeshadream.livejournal.com]

First, as to the baroness/ baron question, as courtier the tradition is that I actually swear to the baron while the rest of the sergeantry has sworn to the baroness. In Aquaterra we've actually moved to all members of the sergeantry swearing fealty to the baron and baroness while further swearing to protect and serve the barony as a whole and all those gentles in need (basically follow the rules of chivalry).

I also feel very strongly that the sergeantry is a job, not an award. I can't speak for all baronies, but our vows include our continuing to further and share our arts, whether marshal or otherwise. We commit to constantly improving ourselves and sharing with others, and as far as I'm concerned once members cannot or will not continue to do so it's time to retire or be made emeritus.

That leads me to the subject of emeritus- for some groups this is what happens if a member of the sergeantry should be recognized for peerage in their field. In Aquaterra this is now also an option for honorable retirement for those who are no longer able to carry on with their duties. They are still welcome to sit in council and voice their opinions, but are not given an official vote, but they are welcome to re-join at a later date if life changes to allow them to renew their vows and duties. If you think of it in potentially more historical terms of the guards, archers, artisans, etc. this makes sense as they likely wouldn't have continued in this profession into extremely ripe old age. :) If couched in this way, this might be a more gentle way of handling those who don't participate, but feel that they "earned" their buckle and don't want to give it up.

Another sticky point for me is that I also strongly believe that it's not simply the strict adherence to standards in testing (which I also believe is of utmost importance), it is also how the sergeants and candidates conduct themselves. They could score everything perfectly, but if they're unchivalrous, discourteous, or in any way dishonorable, that needs to be addressed in council as well as each member of sergeantry should be constantly aware that we each represent not only our Coronets, and Barony, but the Sergeantry as a whole. This is why honest discussion must be had about what to do if there's a need to remove a member of sergeantry as well- for conduct unbecoming or any other reason. I think some people's perceptions of the sergeantry have been directly and perhaps permanently effected by the behavior of one, or a few specific individuals- so this must be considered.

I think the sergeantry should essentially be a huge neon "ASK ME" sign, as they should be a resource of knowledge and courtesy. Regardless of what the original vision was, I think we need to reassess as a whole what the sergeantry can contribute to the kingdom, while still respecting traditions as much as possible.

[crazedcamel.livejournal.com]

I like the premise you are basing this on. One of the reasons I never actually threw my hat into the BaO Sargentry ring was a lot of them never really did anything outside of being a Sargent.

The quest idea has me thinking. But, it would also involve me getting back active within the SCA. And since I am spread too thin right now with everything else, I do not see it happening in the near future.

More Thought - Part I

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

(Split into two because I'm excessively wordy this morning and LJ does not care much for that.)

I should make clear from the outset that I believe strongly in something very much like the Sergeantry of yore and that they did serve a valuable role and can do so again. I also see that playing Devil's Advocate as a valuable part of that process, though many often mistake it for excessive negativity. Questioning things is in my nature.

If we're to build a foundation upon which we wish to encourage people to build their castles of hopes and dreams upon - it behooves us to exert every effort to ensure that it is as strong as possible. Sure, it'll need some shoring up here and there over time, but we don't want to be jacking it up again in a few years to replace major sections of that foundation.

[Start random/stream of consciousness thoughts, lightly edited (to Arontius's great despair), but unlike some we know I at least try to filter and explain.]

In the past we had the PLQ standard - now we propose replacing that with something potentially even more nebulous.

The key to serving as role models is visibility *as Sergeants*. Around here we don't use titles as much as we might (whether speaking to or writing about inferiors, equals, or superiors in rank) and that tends to obscure that visibility. That's a double edged sword - because behaving so also promotes the feeling of family we have so deeply woven into our (Baronial) culture.

Pondering an alternative to Quests... (Which I don't much care for because of the near certainty of devolving into eye rolling.) I'd invert the Quest and form the Seargentry into something inspired by what the Wyverns have occasionally tried to be (without much success) - a visible Companionship/Company that undertakes tasks to serve as role models. Rather than a Quest announced in advance, they'd be required annually to account for their deeds and behavior 'in the mead hall'. (Sigh, on reflection, there's a near certainty of eye rolling in this system too...)

Encouraging growth is a good thing, but it does not come without great potential downsides.

More Thought - Part II

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

(Split into two because I'm excessively wordy this morning and LJ does not care much for that.)

Some random questions/thoughts on potential issues with the whole (Quest/'mead hall'/ongoing accomplishment) structure:

- The system needs to accommodate not only the personal beliefs of the current coronets, but of future ones. (Let's make it clear here that I am emphatically *NOT* saying there is any fault with the personal beliefs of Their Nexcellencies, I actually agree with them on many levels. I'm merely examining the consequences of departing the one-time PLQ standard previously in place.)

- In some ways this type of system encourages ticket punching, repetition, and imitation. Not in the first year, probably not in the third, but likely by the fifth and beyond.

- They also encourage 'one-upmanship'. 'One-upping' is like salt, you need some for health, but too much is dangerous and potentially deadly. How to control/prevent this? Not just to prevent the Sergeantry from devolving into eye-rolling, but to prevent the individual from burning out or setting himself up for failure.

- If you put the Coronets into the position of approving/disapproving Quests/accomplishments you create a great burden of work and a high potential for personal friction and misunderstandings. (This could go high order easily under a coronet that a particular Sergent doesn't care for, not enough to turn in his buckle, but enough to color perceptions.)

- If there are no negative consequences, what then is the value of the Quest/'mead hall'? In some ways it seems that negative consequences would be a major force in promoting evolution and preventing devolution.

- By replacing the traditional 'one time award' with an ongoing burden, what types of personalities will you attract to the Sergeantry and what types will stick with it year in and year out? Can sufficient numbers be attracted to maintain a viable Order?

- How to recognize the value of quests and accomplishments that, on their face, seem radically unlike? Their are many types of service and accomplishment... Cleaning the kitchen after the feast is as valuable as creating the feast in the first place. We want to encourage accomplishment and visibility, but not hollow boasting and bragging.

- Could a system whereby one is only a Sergeant for a given term and then must undertake a new Trial at intervals greater than a year work? (Though I can see some flaws right off the bat.)

[End random/stream of consciousness thoughts]

OK, I'll end here. I'm great at coming up with questions, and even better at asking questions people already know the answer to, not so good at coming up with answers.

Re: More Thought - Part II

[mrq-laurellen.livejournal.com]

Wow, Theodoric... all this interest... does that mean that you are interested in going out for Sergeants? :)

In all seriousness, however, I'm getting the feeling from you that you are not supportive of sergenatry in DL, mostly based on your above comments. I know that you say that it can be taken negatively... I think that is where I am going with it. DO you have any positives to add?

These are all good questions, don't get me wrong. It's just the negative slant that I'm having trouble dealing with. It seems like you're trying to throw a lot of cold water on the idea and I'm interested in why that is.

Re: More Thought - Part II

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

Actually, yes I have considered going out for the Sergeantry (and putting my name in the hat for the Coronets, and becoming a protege). I have not done so because of some unresolved personal game play issues. (I'd welcome the opportunity to discuss them with you and gain your insight in private. I'm starting to get interested in moving forward again.)

If I like an idea, I say so and identify the challenges. If I don't, I say so and identify the problems. Too often challenges and problems can be the same thing, or mistaken as such when they aren't, which is why I'm careful to state my position and beliefs (when I have them) right up front.

And that's exactly what I did here. I stated my belief that reviving the Sergeantry was a good thing, and proceeded to identify the challenges in making that happen. I even expressed why I did so - to attempt to make sure there was a solid foundation going forward as a further attempt to ensure I was not misconstrued.

I didn't "add any positives" because the subject under discussion was how to implement a plan to bring back the Sergeantry not whether or not it was a good idea to do so. (Though I did allude to them in the first message and previously in the discussion.)

To repeat and expand on what I said earlier;

The Sergeantry (in their role as Guards) add to the pageantry, ceremony, and 'feel' of an event. (More so in Court than as escorts.) They can serve as highly visible teachers, role models, mentors, etc... These activities and their visibility as Sergeants will inspire others to seek to improve themselves and take a larger role in the Branch, Kingdom, and Society.

Once the Order is well established and visible, they can also serve a valuable and subtle role in teaching (by visible example) what we, as a Society, expect of our greatest, our teachers, our leaders. Future Peers of all stripes, future Coronets, future heads of Houses, all can be inspired and guided by such an example. As the old bromide goes, "a rising tide floats all boats".

[countess-e.livejournal.com]

I am so looking forward to someday, before we all depart this life, having time to sit down and talk with both you guys, about this as well as many other things. It's been a fairly hot topic around our house lately as well, as you might imagine.

Sargeantry.

[arontius]

I would love to get yours and Cire's input. You are kinda a gage for me on what is classy and cool in the SCA, so your opinion on our direction would be sincerely appreciated.

Our intent is to take Sargenatry into a slightly different direction than it has traditionally taken. Our approach could really devolve into muck with very little effort, so the more input the better.

Let's talk! :-)

A.