Peerage Meeting Prejudice.

[arontius]

.....I was torn between laughter and frustration when I heard the below. See if you can spot the major and minor flaws in the argument before I point them out.

.....Setting: Kingdon Arts & Sciences and Bardic Championship.

.....There was some discussion concerning possible Peerage Meetings that might be scheduled at the event. It was argued that in the past several years too many Peerage Meetings were being scheduled during the Championship. The problem being that too many judges are pulled away from actual judging to attend these meetings. It was hoped that all Peerage (and other) meetings would be curtailed EXCEPT THE LAURELS MEETING.

.....Major Logic Flaw: Doesn't it stand to reason that the pool of judges at Kingdom A&S and Bardic Championship would come PRIMARILY from the Laurel's Council? So, by having a Laurel's Meeting in the first place, aren't the Laurel's themselves taking away from their own pool of judges?

.....Minor Logic Flaw No. 1: Peerage (and other) meetings do not have to be scheduled to interfere with the judging schedule. They can be scheduled for Friday night, for earlier on Saturday, for Sunday morning, etc.

.....Minor Logic Flaw No. 2: Peerage meetings are scheduled to assist the Crown in gathering information on possible candidates under consideration by The Crown. If it is most convenient for those who have informaton to meet at Kingdom A&S and Bardic to provide information to the Council and The Crown; than however inconvenient it is, The Crown may decide that They want to hear Their Council(s) speak at Kingdom A&S and Bardic.

.....Sideline Logic Flaw: O.K. I suppose that it makes sense that Laurels would want to meet at Kingdom A&S and Bardoc because that event presents the greatest concentration of Laurels at a Kingdom Event. I also suppose that this same logic is true for the Chivalry at Crown Events and July Coronation, for those of the Gray Goose Shaft at September Crown, for those of the White Scarf at Twelfth Night, etc. So, at what event does it make sense that a gathering of PELICANS would naturally take place? Is there a Kingdom Event where there is a natural concentration of Pelicans that also naturally begets a Pelican meeting?

.....I apologize for sounding crabby. I already feel less crabby for having typed this. But as a Regional Pelican Secretary where it is getting increasingly difficult to find a day and time where I can get enough of our Region to actually get together in one place to actually meet and discuss an agenda, I find the above arguments against meetings wherever and whenever I can get a group together very frustrating.

.....As a Pelican I also find a sense of descrimination present in the above argument as well. I don't think that it is intentional, but I'm getting tired of hearing it.

.....O.K., I'm taking off my crabby pants now.

.....Aaron / Arontius.

Comments

[pernell-camber.livejournal.com]

Pelican meetings should be held at every event, and the pelicans will rise to the challenge like the saints they are. It doesn't matter if it's a fighting event or an A&S event because there is always work to be accomplished and organized. To make it even more suited to the Pelicans it should be held in the middle of the night at gate, so the meeting can be held while service is being accomplished, and then the pelicans can go short on sleep while they also meet their day time obligations.

Hmmm.

[arontius]

...maybe I should use that as a threat for the next Pelican meeting. We might get more accomplished. Good thought. :-)

A.

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

Heh heh, "saints" (hahahahaha)

[tjk-40.livejournal.com]

Don't apologize, its your journal. And, its not like you're not making sense.

Yeah.

[arontius]

You are right of course. But there isn't enough time as it is and being crabby just takes away from the time you could be having good times with good friends. :-) Wish I could live life without ever being crabby. :-)

A.

[countess-e.livejournal.com]

FWIW, I don't remember the Laurels as a whole expressing a *wish* to meet at Kingdom A&S, which I agree is crazy-making from a judging point of view. (Not to say that maybe some of us did and I just wasn't there, just that if they did, well, I wasn't there.)

You're a faboo regional Pelican secretary and I'll come your meetings any time you say, baby.

Thanks.

[arontius]

I'm a fan of you as well, as if you didn't already know. :-)

Sometimes it feels like there is just not enough time during the year to get everything done that needs to be done as the Western Region. Although it isn't true sometimes I feel responsible for the Western Region not moving very fast on any kind of agenda.

Then I wake up and laugh at myself for thinking such thoughts. :-)

Love ya! Arontius.

[ornerie.livejournal.com]

I counted and we had something like 12 laurel meetings in one year (between regional and kingdom) (12th night, ursalmas, pre A/S, A/S, post A/S, pre May Crown, May Crown, pre July coronation, coronation, pre Sept Crown, Sept Crown, kingdom Bardic...)

I'm ok if the pels dont do that too :)

IMO pels (and laurels) spend way too much time sitting around talking about being peers and not enough time BEING peers. but then I'm a communist who feels our primary reason for being is NOT to make others. its to enable others to be the best leaders they can be, and to help our crown notice people that are good leaders and examples.

meetings is (are?) one way to do that, but certainly not the only way.

does the Pel or Laurel community really need a meeting at Kingdom A/S? we would have had one at 12th night, just a few months before. does having another kigndom level discussion bring in so much new data that its worth changing the focus of the event away from the displaying artisans and their wish for feedback?

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

Here is - as a recent Crown - our logic for doing so:

For the Crown the 12th Night peerage meetings occur before you are actually the Crown - if we don't meet everyone at either Kingdom A&S or Spring Council - we have no chance to touch base with everyone till May Crown - that's five months without meeting with the peerages.

If we meet at KA&S then we get to ditch Spring Crown council gleefully thus freeing up another weekend. Made good sense to us - everyone was there already and I figured that including all meetings including OWS and OGGS would also increase and diversify the attendance at Kingdom A&S. Just an idea : )

Plus

[ornerie.livejournal.com]

oh believe, I would also say (and only whine a little, quietly, into my ginger beer :)) that if the crown feels they need to call a meeting to get feedback, taht is by all means their perogative. with enough notice, I wont even whine TOO Much (ex: ursalmas, or pel meetings at A/S) if its not one of the crown/coronation ones. with enough notice I get to decide if I want to go or not and then its my own fault if I dont make my opnion heard (especially if the agenda is posted ahead of time so I can comment from afar)

it is only my job to provide input. meetings, as I said, are certainly one way to do that, and from the crowns perspective, they are an amazingly efficient way. 1 hr and you're done!

interestingly, I have never heard of the chivalry having meetings other than 12th night, May Crown, July coronation and sept. crown.

do they have that many fewer candidates to process? or are they just held to task less for "missing people" and "not doing their jobs"?

[mrq-laurellen.livejournal.com]

"IMO pels (and laurels) spend way too much time sitting around talking about being peers and not enough time BEING peers."

Oh, I love you so very, very much. I hate meetings so very, very much.

Rather, I should ammend that. I understand why we have regional meetings; it's a necessary evil in a Kingdom that is big. I think that 90% of our meetings at the regional level could be conducted either by email/forum/online. That would leave some folks out but there are always free internet access points at libraries.

I find the Kingdom level meetings much more informational and I actually like them (just a little). I'm there to listen to who's up and coming in the Kingdom that I might not have otherwise known about and to advise the Crown on my little piece of it all.

I don't think you can call yourself a 'Communist' for feeling that your primary job as a Peer does NOT include MAKING other Peers. I feel the same way... I'm here to be a resource and example, not to push or politic. I'm not sure what I would call it... maybe a 'Realist'?

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

What I was going to say!

: )

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

I cannot speak for other Crowns but if we held meetings, we held all of them. We met with all the peerages equally often.

And I never preceived any of the orders as being held to task. To my mind our job is to be peers and advise the Crown - and that doesn't mean just going to meetings. I fear sometimes that some of us see that as sum of the expression of our duty.

I am with you - we best serve when we are BEING peers.

[scratchel.livejournal.com]

As far as the chiv goes, I don't think it is that they have fewer candidates, or aren't taken to task as much, so much as it is easier to see when a candidate is ready. Each tourney they enter is like a meeting. No need for the extra meetings to pass around pictures or examples of their work. Plus, it is easier to judge when sommeone is ready, because they are all doing the same thing. Fairly cut and dried. As laurels and pels, you have an extremely broad range of arts, sciences and services to be aware of. It is a very big job, if you ask me. But I don't need to tell you that... :)

[scratchel.livejournal.com]

oh, and I just remembered-the Chiv met at both A&S and Ursulmas this last year....

Good Point.

[arontius]

I like your point that we need to spend more time BEING good leaders rather than talking about it. Thanks for the reminder.

A.

Re: Good Point.

[ornerie.livejournal.com]

honey, believe me when I say that you're one of the examples of people who DONT have that problem in my mind :)

[gwen-the-potter.livejournal.com]

You can be crabby if you want to. I look at it as the headache of trying to schedule peerage meetings (and all the other meetings).

Friday night is not possible. People are arriving, and we are setting up. If last year is any indication, that takes a long time. I was at the event site til 11:00 completing the set-up.

Sunday is all final judging. With two championships this year, we need to allot as much time as possible, otherwise we will be there til 6:00 in the evening.

So that *just* leaves Saturday. Personally, I would say *no* peerage meetings, because the ONLY time slots available is lunch, and potential one hour lull between then end of judging and court. So whoever gets to meet at lunchtime could miss lunchtime.

This has been the challenge. And for the past couple of years, it's also been white scarves & goose meetings.

Counter to Logic Flaw #1: Laurel meetings usually happen at lunch, in order not to dip into the judges' pool.

I've already addressed minor logic flaw #1 above.

Minor logic flaw #2, it don't matter what I want, anyway. The Crown decides who meets when. It just makes the A&S team's job much more difficult trying to schedule meetings that don't conflict with judging.

Sideline flaw...Pels can meet when or where they want at the Crown's desire. If they choose to meet at KA&S, so be it. The thing is, A&S judging is different than a tourney. It lasts all day long and affects a lot of people, because not just Laurels are judges (as you know, poetry and latin judge).

Nothing is perfect, we do the best we can. But I can tell you, this will probably be my last time to work this event. It is very disheartening - it is a logistical nightmare, takes a lot of coordination and scheduling, and involves a variety of personalities (not all good). Between the lack of communication, the no-show judges, the entrants that show up without ever contacting me, the schedule juggling, trying to make everyone happy, not stepping on toes, or hurting feelings if someone is not chosen for day two judging, arguments about why someone got such & such score, it just an exhausting and thankless job. Kind of like most of the other jobs within the SCA.

You can be as crabby as you want, and write what you want in your journal. It's your jounal, and it's designed for venting. I'm sorry I pressed your button on the KA&S email list, because it was *me* who mentioned the issue with multiple *meetings* (not just peerage meetings) at such a complicated event. I was not picking on Pelicans at all, and didn't mean to offend. I was trying to make a complicated schedule less stressful for all.

I will be so glad to turn this over to my deputy-in-training next year.

Sorry!

[arontius]

I didn't mean to be so crabby, Gwen. And if I had thought about it I would have filtered you out as you are one of my favorite people on the whole planet. It wasn't directed at YOU, it was directed at the perceived attitude. You've supported me on countless occasions. Been there when I've needed help. Been generous well beyond what you needed to be. I just sometimes get crabby when the Pelicans get treated like bastard step-chilren. I know that wasn't your intent.

I'm just glad I didn't follow my original impulse and respond on the KASB list itself. THAT would have been stupid, and certainly not the place for crabby peers to discuss fundamental thoughts on their particular Orders. :-)

I've shaken off the work week and had a good night's sleep. I'm MUCH better now. :-)

Hang in there, Gwen. You've done an absolutely FANTASTIC job with your office. Ellen is going to miss you mightily in that position.

Arontius.

Re: Sorry!

[gwen-the-potter.livejournal.com]

Love you, dude. You can be crabby to me as much as you want. You know I'll still give it back to you!

I understand you feelings, and I don't really see a solution, other than a game of Extreme Tetris with the judging schedule. And more judges. Lots more judges...

Re: Sorry!

[gwen-the-potter.livejournal.com]

You know the real solution...The Kingdom of Dragon's Laire...oops, did I say that outloud?

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

I agree with you entirely honey.

And to folks who asked why we needed - since we just were Crowns for this event - to have peerage etc meetings at Kingdom A&S - if we did then we got to ditch Spring Crown council gleefully thus freeing up another weekend.

Plus for the Crown the 12th Night peerages occur before you are actually the Crown - if we don't meet everyone at either Kingdom A&S or Spring Council - we have no chance to touch base with everyone till May Crown - that's five months.

Made good sense to us - everyone was there already and I figured that including all meetings including OWS and OGGS would also increase and diversify the attendance at Kingdom A&S. Just an idea : )

Made Sense To Me.

[arontius]

You are absolutely right. There just isn't enough room on the calendar to do ALL things you really want to do, much all the things you really SHOULD do.

Hope that you didn't feel as if you had to defend yourself between Gwen and myself? I would feel bad if you thought that. Your Crown was one of my favorites. I loved the two of you and thought you did it right. :-)

Arontius.

Re: Made Sense To Me.

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

Oh heavens no honey! I just think that there is no harm in explaining the why behind choices either. I never mind providing the reason behind any of the choices/decisions I make : )

And thank you for saying we were among your favorites and that we did it right - that means worlds to me coming from such an incredible man as you dear. You made me all weepy in the good way : )

HUGS

[gwen-the-potter.livejournal.com]

What Arontius said...

Arontius and I have lively "discussions" quite often. We know what buttons to push for each other.

I see the logic, I understand. I just wish there was a way to simplify things so that the timeing is not such a headache. Taking down the number of entries helped, but that encourages more entries, so we don't end up with less, we end up with more. I'm afraid at some point we will have to put a limit on the number of entrants because of number of judges available, amount of space available, etc.

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

I wish there was a way to simplify it too.

[sjusts.livejournal.com]

As others have said, "It is your journal"

You can vent, you can try out ideas before implementing them, what ever you want to do.

I do agree that the "Calendar" is so full as to make it almost impossible to get everything done.

From what I have seen sitting on the sidelines you have been doing a wonderful job at the local and Kingdom levels.

What is a Peer?

[imdonnan.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer:
This is not to poke fun at you but rather I see the view point slowly gathering steam over the years

I find it amusing but, not uncommon, that you used Laurels, Pelicans and Chivalry meetings in with Gray Goose Shaft and White Scarf. The first 3 are Peers and the last 2 are possibly social peers but not Society recognize peerages.

The humorous part of me wants to wonder if Court Baronies will now start having vigils, buffets and meetings to advise the Crown.

Re: What is a Peer?

[freewaydiva.livejournal.com]

I think CBs should start having tailgate parties, bbqs and keggers, like the landless white trash they are. Discussion of Kingdom Politics/Policies optional...

::with tongue FIRMLY in cheek::

Re: What is a Peer?

[gwen-the-potter.livejournal.com]

Heck, if they did that, I'd go! Wait, do I have to be a court baroness? Or can I crash like the po' white trash that I am?

Re: What is a Peer?

[arontius]

Well, you know, the Jambes and Gouttes have their own e-mail list, and started informally meeting a couple of years ago. So, what you say may already be in the planning phases. :-) Like freewaydiva says below though, maybe it could lead to some really good parties. :-)

A.

Re: What is a Peer?

[imdonnan.livejournal.com]

Oh no!! I was kidding. Juuust shoot me. No wait I have a great idea. Buffets for everyone. I think there are some back payments due with interest.

[angharadalbanes.livejournal.com]

{humor on} Well, whatever event typically has the largest number of attendees and the smallest number of staff would naturally attract a concentration of Pelicans, I would think. ;-) The meeting could be scheduled for the time when gate is typically the busiest. ;-) ;-) {humor off}

When I lived in the East Kingdom, pollings were done by mail. The candidates on the list would have several choices next to their names, such as 'yes, wait, never heard of her/him, no', plus a space for comments. This would all be gathered into a nice spreadsheet for Their Majesties and the peerage in question to study. Anyone at or over a certain percentage of 'yes' could be elevated without fear of Fiat. Anyone on the cusp would be discussed further. There were meetings at big events, to be sure but, from what I was told, these were pretty focused as a rule, because there was something concrete to go by. If a candidate way north of Boston had regional 'yes' votes and 'never heard' votes from everywhere else, then how to get them exposure was explored. While the East does not have the epic geographical challenges we do, there are some distances that are comparable. For example, the Barony of Ruantallan covers Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, and is quite a hike from most places. So, several Peers from the Greater Boston area 'adopted' Ruantallan, going up there for weekends regularly, and hosting 'Ruantalented' folks when they could afford to come down. This was in the late 90's, before the Principality of the Northern Shores was created, and when the exchange rate favored the US.

Actually, I really enjoy it when you don your cranky pants. You're much less saintly then, and more approachable for us flawed mortals. ;-) Not to mention the fact that your cranky pants seem to be seamed into your funny bone somehow. ;-)

Acting Like A Peer?

[arontius]

I was told at one time that Peers never talk outside the Council, especially things like this that make them crabby within the circle. It was a person for whom I hold a high regard, so the edict stuck with me. I actually felt guilty for writing what I did. At least afterwards. :-)

I like the idea of what they do in The East. I wonder if An Tir could make it work...

A.

Re: Acting Like A Peer?

[hrollaug.livejournal.com]

Recall that the Kingdom had an on-line meeting, it didn't suck too bad.

Re: Acting Like A Peer?

[jjjlllvvv.livejournal.com]

I'm fine with some sort of web based polling of the order, with a couple of caveats. The primary one is that the poll results should be open to the order. One of the purposes of meetings is to educate/convince the rest of the order as to the worthiness of candidates. The polling process could serve to do that as well.

I would also like to distinguish between the issue of whether one feels a candidate is peerage material and whether they should be elevated or not. There have been many occasions when I felt that someone was ready, but significant portions of the peerage did not, and despite my feelings I think that an elevation is such circumstances would have been less than ideal, and indeed sometimes it was. :( Ultimately the value of a peerage is dependent on the respect of the Crown, the peerage and the populace. If you are missing one of those things it sucks.

Anyway I would be interested in what others think would make a good polling process. Perhaps take this up on the email list?